♥ ROAD TO MISS FRANCE 2022 ♥ Île-de-France is Miss France!!!





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Re: ♥ ROAD TO MISS FRANCE 2022 ♥ Île-de-France is Miss Franc

Postby The.Apprentice » Wed Dec 15, 2021 5:57 pm

    

Cry harder Geneviève, you are nothing today!
Rules are meant to be changed and these are from 60 years ago, let it go.


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Re: ♥ ROAD TO MISS FRANCE 2022 ♥ Île-de-France is Miss Franc

Postby The.Apprentice » Wed Dec 15, 2021 5:59 pm

Queen of the Clouds wrote:
Thomas876 wrote:
The.Apprentice wrote:Yayyyy Miss France is now confirmed to allow transgender women to compete! That's so awesome! 8-> 8->
Alexia Larouche-Joubert also said she spoke with 25 Miss France titleholders to have an assessment of the current rules and update them.
I'm so proud of my country right now!


I hope tattooed women will finally be accepted to compete as well. I don't understand how this is a problem. In male pageants, half of the men (if not more) have tattoos and that doesn't shock anyone at all.


This is good news but I wonder how it will be implemented. I strongly support the no plastic surgery rule, and obviously plastic surgery is pretty much part of the process for most transgender women, so I wonder how that will be worked out.

I hope to see the tattoo, piercings, and nude photos rules go away, they are dumb and pointless. Strongly supportive of the height and age requirements though, I don't want to see those touched. I've also seen discourse in French media about the rules regarding being unmarried and having no children, and for the sake of Miss France I really hope those aren't messed with. Personally I don't care that much either way, but that's an easy way to get your titleholders disqualified from competing internationally.


I suppose plastic surgery and gender reassignment surgery will be allowed for that specific case only.
I don't see why the height rule should not be touched? If not mistaken that's not a criteria for either MW or Miss Universe? We have gorgeous shorter women too!
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Re: ♥ ROAD TO MISS FRANCE 2022 ♥ Île-de-France is Miss Franc

Postby itsrowdy801 » Wed Dec 15, 2021 6:09 pm

Queen of the Clouds wrote:
Thomas876 wrote:
The.Apprentice wrote:Yayyyy Miss France is now confirmed to allow transgender women to compete! That's so awesome! 8-> 8->
Alexia Larouche-Joubert also said she spoke with 25 Miss France titleholders to have an assessment of the current rules and update them.
I'm so proud of my country right now!


I hope tattooed women will finally be accepted to compete as well. I don't understand how this is a problem. In male pageants, half of the men (if not more) have tattoos and that doesn't shock anyone at all.


This is good news but I wonder how it will be implemented. I strongly support the no plastic surgery rule, and obviously plastic surgery is pretty much part of the process for most transgender women, so I wonder how that will be worked out.

I hope to see the tattoo, piercings, and nude photos rules go away, they are dumb and pointless. Strongly supportive of the height and age requirements though, I don't want to see those touched. I've also seen discourse in French media about the rules regarding being unmarried and having no children, and for the sake of Miss France I really hope those aren't messed with. Personally I don't care that much either way, but that's an easy way to get your titleholders disqualified from competing internationally.


Height requirements? What's the deal with those?

I guess the question is...is there a difference between plastic surgery for cosmetic reasons, and plastic surgery for some sort of need? Would they allow a woman to compete who had sustained facial damage in an accident and received reconstructive surgery afterwards to repair the damage, or a woman who had the BRCA gene mutation and got a mastectomy with reconstructive implants to prevent future cancer?

If no, then transwomen who have received gender-affirming surgical procedures shouldn't be able to compete, either. If they have made an exception for people who have received plastic surgery due to a medical need, they should let transwomen compete too.
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Re: ♥ ROAD TO MISS FRANCE 2022 ♥ Île-de-France is Miss Franc

Postby Queen of the Clouds » Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:17 pm

itsrowdy801 wrote:
Queen of the Clouds wrote:
Thomas876 wrote:
The.Apprentice wrote:Yayyyy Miss France is now confirmed to allow transgender women to compete! That's so awesome! 8-> 8->
Alexia Larouche-Joubert also said she spoke with 25 Miss France titleholders to have an assessment of the current rules and update them.
I'm so proud of my country right now!


I hope tattooed women will finally be accepted to compete as well. I don't understand how this is a problem. In male pageants, half of the men (if not more) have tattoos and that doesn't shock anyone at all.


This is good news but I wonder how it will be implemented. I strongly support the no plastic surgery rule, and obviously plastic surgery is pretty much part of the process for most transgender women, so I wonder how that will be worked out.

I hope to see the tattoo, piercings, and nude photos rules go away, they are dumb and pointless. Strongly supportive of the height and age requirements though, I don't want to see those touched. I've also seen discourse in French media about the rules regarding being unmarried and having no children, and for the sake of Miss France I really hope those aren't messed with. Personally I don't care that much either way, but that's an easy way to get your titleholders disqualified from competing internationally.


Height requirements? What's the deal with those?

I guess the question is...is there a difference between plastic surgery for cosmetic reasons, and plastic surgery for some sort of need? Would they allow a woman to compete who had sustained facial damage in an accident and received reconstructive surgery afterwards to repair the damage, or a woman who had the BRCA gene mutation and got a mastectomy with reconstructive implants to prevent future cancer?

If no, then transwomen who have received gender-affirming surgical procedures shouldn't be able to compete, either. If they have made an exception for people who have received plastic surgery due to a medical need, they should let transwomen compete too.


I think the rule is for elective cosmetic surgery? So like if there's a medical need, the surgery is allowed, but if it's just the choice of the girl to get something done that she doesn't need, then it's not allowed. That's my understanding. Applying this to transwomen makes things complicated though, because there is debate in the trans community on whether cosmetic surgery (including gender-affirming surgeries) is necessary or elective. I've heard many arguments on both sides of the debate, and it's not something I really care to wade in on.

As for the height requirements, this is not the PC opinion to have nowadays, but being short will ALWAYS be a disadvantage to a girl. The easiest way to make yourself stand out is by being tall, look at poor Bahrain this year, who looked like a child next to everyone else at Miss Universe. People always point to Maria Thattil as evidence that height doesn't matter, but she's the exception, not the rule, and she didn't win did she? Plus, she had a very strong sash and was an incredible speaker. If Maria was 5'9, I bet she would have won. Look at every Miss Universe winner, pretty much every single one of them in the past 30 or whatever years came within Miss France's height requirements (1.70m/5'7 or taller). The height requirement in Miss France contributes to them consistently sending competitive girls every year, and France is not the only country with this requirement. I've found that Miss USA crowning short girls recently (Sarah, Cheslie, Asya) was a direct factor in them losing their sparkle at Miss Universe, being compared to such glamazons. People always said Asya looked too much like a Teen, and that was exclusively due to her height, as she does not have a Teen face at all. Height wasn't a rule at Miss USA in the Trump era, but it was sort of unspoken that girls under ~5'7 weren't winning crowns, and we were far more competitive then.

And just two final points: the height requirement at Miss France is not crazy restrictive like it is in some other countries (I believe Venezuela or maybe some other Latin country has a 5'9 height requirement), 5'7 is an obtainable height, and then I think the push to make pageantry inclusive of all women is missing the point. Miss Universe, or Miss France, or Miss USA, or whatever other title should not represent the "average woman," she should represent the top of the top. All these pushes I've seen for things like these are focused in letting the "average woman" take part, but a pageant queen should never be the average woman, she should be above that. What I want in a queen is a supermodel who is also incredibly intelligent, charismatic, and accomplished. Why are we cutting out the supermodel part of the equation for the sake of inclusivity? It's not like we don't judge them on physical appearance anyways, if we look for beauty I don't know why height requirements have become so taboo.

Not a super popular opinion anymore, but it's still my opinion.
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Re: ♥ ROAD TO MISS FRANCE 2022 ♥ Île-de-France is Miss Franc

Postby Fany » Wed Dec 15, 2021 8:31 pm

Harnaaz looks noticeably petite compared to Andrea. How tall is she?

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Re: ♥ ROAD TO MISS FRANCE 2022 ♥ Île-de-France is Miss Franc

Postby Thomas876 » Wed Dec 15, 2021 9:18 pm

I am not in favor of removing the height rule. It is the only truly physical criterion that we have. We would always prefer a tall woman to a short woman, if they have an equivalent level of beauty. In addition, the criterion has already been reviewed with Sylvie Tellier, I don't think that 1m70 is a height difficult to access, even if the French women are on average 1m62.
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Re: ♥ ROAD TO MISS FRANCE 2022 ♥ Île-de-France is Miss Franc

Postby itsrowdy801 » Wed Dec 15, 2021 9:23 pm

Fany wrote:Harnaaz looks noticeably petite compared to Andrea. How tall is she?



She's 5'9, and Andrea is 5'11".
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Re: ♥ ROAD TO MISS FRANCE 2022 ♥ Île-de-France is Miss Franc

Postby Arduina » Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:11 pm

Geneviève did not disappoint ... as expected. What an old bat. Sorry but I have a hard time understanding this person. Only existing through feud.
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Re: ♥ ROAD TO MISS FRANCE 2022 ♥ Île-de-France is Miss Franc

Postby Thomas876 » Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:42 pm

Arduina wrote:Geneviève did not disappoint ... as expected. What an old bat. Sorry but I have a hard time understanding this person. Only existing through feud.


I hate her. She always pretends to be a victim while she insults people, she had said that Nathalie Marquay had a chickpea in her head and was fucked in haystacks when she participated in La Ferme Célébrités. Besides, she isn't modern at all, she still thinks bikinis are vulgar and only one-piece swimsuits are classy. 8-} She's stuck in the 20th century, luckily she sold Miss France!!!
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Re: ♥ ROAD TO MISS FRANCE 2022 ♥ Île-de-France is Miss Franc

Postby Mariana Erwin » Thu Dec 16, 2021 12:38 am

Did Diane Leyre say her preferred pageant? I hope she did.
No more bashers in 2022, please.

Also, watch Dani Walker's video to know more on how bashers can kill with their words.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbYUDqSC1UM
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Re: ♥ ROAD TO MISS FRANCE 2022 ♥ Île-de-France is Miss Franc

Postby Thomas876 » Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:02 am

Mariana Erwin wrote:Did Diane Leyre say her preferred pageant? I hope she did.


Not yet! I guess we will have to wait for many months...
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Re: ♥ ROAD TO MISS FRANCE 2022 ♥ Île-de-France is Miss Franc

Postby Mariana Erwin » Thu Dec 16, 2021 2:42 am

Thomas876 wrote:
Mariana Erwin wrote:Did Diane Leyre say her preferred pageant? I hope she did.


Not yet! I guess we will have to wait for many months...
Wow. I guess she will reveal it once other countries start enthroning their contestants for either Miss Universe or World 2022. I still remember Amandine for declaring her preferred pageant just days after she was crowned.
No more bashers in 2022, please.

Also, watch Dani Walker's video to know more on how bashers can kill with their words.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbYUDqSC1UM
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Re: ♥ ROAD TO MISS FRANCE 2022 ♥ Île-de-France is Miss Franc

Postby The.Apprentice » Thu Dec 16, 2021 6:06 am

Thomas876 wrote:I am not in favor of removing the height rule. It is the only truly physical criterion that we have. We would always prefer a tall woman to a short woman, if they have an equivalent level of beauty. In addition, the criterion has already been reviewed with Sylvie Tellier, I don't think that 1m70 is a height difficult to access, even if the French women are on average 1m62.


It is difficult to access since height is not something women can change and being shorter doesn't mean they're less beautiful.
Most of the beautiful girls I know are shorter and they would make amazing Miss France.
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Re: ♥ ROAD TO MISS FRANCE 2022 ♥ Île-de-France is Miss Franc

Postby itsrowdy801 » Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:09 am

The.Apprentice wrote:
Thomas876 wrote:I am not in favor of removing the height rule. It is the only truly physical criterion that we have. We would always prefer a tall woman to a short woman, if they have an equivalent level of beauty. In addition, the criterion has already been reviewed with Sylvie Tellier, I don't think that 1m70 is a height difficult to access, even if the French women are on average 1m62.


It is difficult to access since height is not something women can change and being shorter doesn't mean they're less beautiful.
Most of the beautiful girls I know are shorter and they would make amazing Miss France.


I'm inclined to fall into the same camp. I'm a big believer that, as long as you meet the eligibility requirements for MUO and/or Miss World, you should be able to compete. I don't like the idea of excluding shorter girls from following a dream, and I think if you're good enough to win a regional, you're good enough to compete at Miss France, whether you're 5'1" or 6'1". And if you're good enough to win Miss France, you deserve to go to Universe or World, but especially since the title of Miss France is primarily about the title in itself rather than representing France internationally, I think that makes that even more true.

Like, from a USA-centric perspective, y'all know I love Cheslie, and it would have been a shame if we couldn't have such a gorgeous, accomplished, and intelligent Miss USA because she's short.
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Re: ♥ ROAD TO MISS FRANCE 2022 ♥ Île-de-France is Miss Franc

Postby ARAYKOPO » Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:24 am

The.Apprentice wrote:
Queen of the Clouds wrote:
Thomas876 wrote:
The.Apprentice wrote:Yayyyy Miss France is now confirmed to allow transgender women to compete! That's so awesome! 8-> 8->
Alexia Larouche-Joubert also said she spoke with 25 Miss France titleholders to have an assessment of the current rules and update them.
I'm so proud of my country right now!


I hope tattooed women will finally be accepted to compete as well. I don't understand how this is a problem. In male pageants, half of the men (if not more) have tattoos and that doesn't shock anyone at all.


This is good news but I wonder how it will be implemented. I strongly support the no plastic surgery rule, and obviously plastic surgery is pretty much part of the process for most transgender women, so I wonder how that will be worked out.

I hope to see the tattoo, piercings, and nude photos rules go away, they are dumb and pointless. Strongly supportive of the height and age requirements though, I don't want to see those touched. I've also seen discourse in French media about the rules regarding being unmarried and having no children, and for the sake of Miss France I really hope those aren't messed with. Personally I don't care that much either way, but that's an easy way to get your titleholders disqualified from competing internationally.


I suppose plastic surgery and gender reassignment surgery will be allowed for that specific case only.
I don't see why the height rule should not be touched? If not mistaken that's not a criteria for either MW or Miss Universe? We have gorgeous shorter women too!


I was about to join a national beauty pageant too but i was told that my cock is too big and is bulging and it would be inappropriate to wear in a bikini in front of the audience. Then i was told that if i get my cock removed, i will be allowed to join again. My question is, what is my cock an issue because If they allowed a transgender to join nowadays, i should be allowed too. =O/ =O/
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Re: ♥ ROAD TO MISS FRANCE 2022 ♥ Île-de-France is Miss Franc

Postby The.Apprentice » Thu Dec 16, 2021 8:04 am

ARAYKOPO wrote:
The.Apprentice wrote:
Queen of the Clouds wrote:
Thomas876 wrote:
The.Apprentice wrote:Yayyyy Miss France is now confirmed to allow transgender women to compete! That's so awesome! 8-> 8->
Alexia Larouche-Joubert also said she spoke with 25 Miss France titleholders to have an assessment of the current rules and update them.
I'm so proud of my country right now!


I hope tattooed women will finally be accepted to compete as well. I don't understand how this is a problem. In male pageants, half of the men (if not more) have tattoos and that doesn't shock anyone at all.


This is good news but I wonder how it will be implemented. I strongly support the no plastic surgery rule, and obviously plastic surgery is pretty much part of the process for most transgender women, so I wonder how that will be worked out.

I hope to see the tattoo, piercings, and nude photos rules go away, they are dumb and pointless. Strongly supportive of the height and age requirements though, I don't want to see those touched. I've also seen discourse in French media about the rules regarding being unmarried and having no children, and for the sake of Miss France I really hope those aren't messed with. Personally I don't care that much either way, but that's an easy way to get your titleholders disqualified from competing internationally.


I suppose plastic surgery and gender reassignment surgery will be allowed for that specific case only.
I don't see why the height rule should not be touched? If not mistaken that's not a criteria for either MW or Miss Universe? We have gorgeous shorter women too!


I was about to join a national beauty pageant too but i was told that my cock is too big and is bulging and it would be inappropriate to wear in a bikini in front of the audience. Then i was told that if i get my cock removed, i will be allowed to join again. My question is, what is my cock an issue because If they allowed a transgender to join nowadays, i should be allowed too. =O/ =O/


In France, you are not allowed to self-ID as the gender you need to. You must go through medical follow-up and gender reassignment surgery first.
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Re: ♥ ROAD TO MISS FRANCE 2022 ♥ Île-de-France is Miss Franc

Postby The.Apprentice » Thu Dec 16, 2021 8:29 am

itsrowdy801 wrote:
The.Apprentice wrote:
Thomas876 wrote:I am not in favor of removing the height rule. It is the only truly physical criterion that we have. We would always prefer a tall woman to a short woman, if they have an equivalent level of beauty. In addition, the criterion has already been reviewed with Sylvie Tellier, I don't think that 1m70 is a height difficult to access, even if the French women are on average 1m62.


It is difficult to access since height is not something women can change and being shorter doesn't mean they're less beautiful.
Most of the beautiful girls I know are shorter and they would make amazing Miss France.


I'm inclined to fall into the same camp. I'm a big believer that, as long as you meet the eligibility requirements for MUO and/or Miss World, you should be able to compete. I don't like the idea of excluding shorter girls from following a dream, and I think if you're good enough to win a regional, you're good enough to compete at Miss France, whether you're 5'1" or 6'1". And if you're good enough to win Miss France, you deserve to go to Universe or World, but especially since the title of Miss France is primarily about the title in itself rather than representing France internationally, I think that makes that even more true.

Like, from a USA-centric perspective, y'all know I love Cheslie, and it would have been a shame if we couldn't have such a gorgeous, accomplished, and intelligent Miss USA because she's short.


Yes to all of that, and also showing their height measurement during the swimsuit round in the live telecast is so weird now.
Get rid of it, it"s so useless to know this.
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Re: ♥ ROAD TO MISS FRANCE 2022 ♥ Île-de-France is Miss Franc

Postby Queen of the Clouds » Thu Dec 16, 2021 9:51 am

The.Apprentice wrote:
Thomas876 wrote:I am not in favor of removing the height rule. It is the only truly physical criterion that we have. We would always prefer a tall woman to a short woman, if they have an equivalent level of beauty. In addition, the criterion has already been reviewed with Sylvie Tellier, I don't think that 1m70 is a height difficult to access, even if the French women are on average 1m62.


It is difficult to access since height is not something women can change and being shorter doesn't mean they're less beautiful.
Most of the beautiful girls I know are shorter and they would make amazing Miss France.


They cannot change their faces, yet we still judge them on facial beauty. I think it’s just bizarre that we have no problem doing that but once the question of height comes up we claim that’s too much. If we have no problem judging girls on their beauty, there should be no issue with judging them on their height either. They fall into the same category for me.
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Re: ♥ ROAD TO MISS FRANCE 2022 ♥ Île-de-France is Miss Franc

Postby The.Apprentice » Thu Dec 16, 2021 4:49 pm

Queen of the Clouds wrote:
The.Apprentice wrote:
Thomas876 wrote:I am not in favor of removing the height rule. It is the only truly physical criterion that we have. We would always prefer a tall woman to a short woman, if they have an equivalent level of beauty. In addition, the criterion has already been reviewed with Sylvie Tellier, I don't think that 1m70 is a height difficult to access, even if the French women are on average 1m62.


It is difficult to access since height is not something women can change and being shorter doesn't mean they're less beautiful.
Most of the beautiful girls I know are shorter and they would make amazing Miss France.


They cannot change their faces, yet we still judge them on facial beauty. I think it’s just bizarre that we have no problem doing that but once the question of height comes up we claim that’s too much. If we have no problem judging girls on their beauty, there should be no issue with judging them on their height either. They fall into the same category for me.


You can literally change everything about your face though. I even saw girls changing their eye colour with ink injections. Height can't really be changed though.
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Re: ♥ ROAD TO MISS FRANCE 2022 ♥ Île-de-France is Miss Franc

Postby itsrowdy801 » Thu Dec 16, 2021 4:54 pm

Queen of the Clouds wrote:
The.Apprentice wrote:
Thomas876 wrote:I am not in favor of removing the height rule. It is the only truly physical criterion that we have. We would always prefer a tall woman to a short woman, if they have an equivalent level of beauty. In addition, the criterion has already been reviewed with Sylvie Tellier, I don't think that 1m70 is a height difficult to access, even if the French women are on average 1m62.


It is difficult to access since height is not something women can change and being shorter doesn't mean they're less beautiful.
Most of the beautiful girls I know are shorter and they would make amazing Miss France.


They cannot change their faces, yet we still judge them on facial beauty. I think it’s just bizarre that we have no problem doing that but once the question of height comes up we claim that’s too much. If we have no problem judging girls on their beauty, there should be no issue with judging them on their height either. They fall into the same category for me.


That’s true, but I’ve also definitely seen girls in state pageants who weren’t particularly conventionally attractive. They probably know as well as us that they were never going to win or even place, but I still am happy that they got to follow a dream to compete, experience that sisterhood, etc. and I think that’s probably a great experience for them
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Re: ♥ ROAD TO MISS FRANCE 2022 ♥ Île-de-France is Miss Franc

Postby The.Apprentice » Thu Dec 16, 2021 5:01 pm

And make up is a life changer for a lot of people. So is the beard for men, but you get the point.
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Re: ♥ ROAD TO MISS FRANCE 2022 ♥ Île-de-France is Miss Franc

Postby Arduina » Thu Dec 16, 2021 9:12 pm

17 girls of the 2022 promo met again at Disneyland Paris :)

Image
Image TEAM FRANCE
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Re: ♥ ROAD TO MISS FRANCE 2022 ♥

Postby Thomas876 » Mon Mar 20, 2023 7:58 pm

Thomas876 wrote:
Qualified for Miss Aquitaine 2021 :

Miss Médoc 2021 - Laurène Lohmann (24 years old)

1st runner-up of Miss Médoc 2021 - Laurie Meneret (21 years old)

The podium (the 2nd runner-up is not qualified) :


Louise Giraudau, the 2nd runner-up of Miss Médoc 2021, has just died of left ovarian cancer against which she had been fighting for two years.

Image


Rest in peace Louise! :%((
TOP 5 for Miss Universe 2024 :

1. France 2. Mongolia 3. Kazakhstan
4. Venezuela 5. Kyrgyzstan


TEAM FRANCE 2023
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Re: ♥ ROAD TO MISS FRANCE 2022 ♥

Postby itsrowdy801 » Tue Mar 21, 2023 3:14 am

Thomas876 wrote:
Thomas876 wrote:
Qualified for Miss Aquitaine 2021 :

Miss Médoc 2021 - Laurène Lohmann (24 years old)

1st runner-up of Miss Médoc 2021 - Laurie Meneret (21 years old)

The podium (the 2nd runner-up is not qualified) :


Louise Giraudau, the 2nd runner-up of Miss Médoc 2021, has just died of left ovarian cancer against which she had been fighting for two years.

Image


Rest in peace Louise! :%((


That's such sad news :( sending love and condolences to the whole Miss France community and her family
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Re: ♥ ROAD TO MISS FRANCE 2022 ♥

Postby yellowyam1 » Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:33 am

Thomas876 wrote:
Thomas876 wrote:
Qualified for Miss Aquitaine 2021 :

Miss Médoc 2021 - Laurène Lohmann (24 years old)

1st runner-up of Miss Médoc 2021 - Laurie Meneret (21 years old)

The podium (the 2nd runner-up is not qualified) :


Louise Giraudau, the 2nd runner-up of Miss Médoc 2021, has just died of left ovarian cancer against which she had been fighting for two years.

Image


Rest in peace Louise! :%((


Omg awful
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Re: ♥ ROAD TO MISS FRANCE 2022 ♥

Postby Mariana Erwin » Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:09 am

Thomas876 wrote:
Thomas876 wrote:
Qualified for Miss Aquitaine 2021 :

Miss Médoc 2021 - Laurène Lohmann (24 years old)

1st runner-up of Miss Médoc 2021 - Laurie Meneret (21 years old)

The podium (the 2nd runner-up is not qualified) :


Louise Giraudau, the 2nd runner-up of Miss Médoc 2021, has just died of left ovarian cancer against which she had been fighting for two years.

Image


Rest in peace Louise! :%((
This is so sad to hear. May she rest in peace! :%(( :%(( :%(( :%(( :%(( :%(( :%(( :%(( :%(( :%(( :%(( :%(( :%((
No more bashers in 2022, please.

Also, watch Dani Walker's video to know more on how bashers can kill with their words.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbYUDqSC1UM
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